Bible Reading 2009-10-18

Bible Reading 2009-10-18

leiger 1255867555|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Not exactly controversial, but generally worth discussing. I'd like to post up the bible verse that our church goes through, every Sunday. This would be the first, and I'll hopefully do this next week as well.

Gospel of Mark, chapter 10: 35-45 (NRSV¹)

James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came forward to him and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." And he said to them, "What is it you want me to do for you?"

And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory." But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with?" They replied, "We are able."

Then Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptised, you will be baptised; but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared."

When the ten heard this, they began to be angry with James and John. So Jesus called them and said to them, "You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognise as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Questions:

1. Is there anything that strikes you as you read that just now?
2. Thinking over the passage, what does this mean to you?

We had a really interesting discussion today about this… but I'll wait for people to respond first.

Footnotes

1. Edited so that it's in Australian spelling :)

---

— Shane | Blog | CycloDS Revolution | Compatibility List | Want me to manage your next wiki? | XBL: leiger40

Automatic code replacement — Rate it up!

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

Timothy Foster 1255912704|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

That's a good passage.

1) What strikes me is that to be great, you must be first humble. Jesus says that we "do not know what [we] are asking", meaning that this is harder than we should apparently expect. And in truth, it can be hard to be servant of all.
2) Like I said above, to be great, one must be humble. Like as a servant, doing good for another without obtaining very much glory for yourself.

Do you mind if I make some of these passages as a verse for the verse module?

---

— Blog ~ Life's Handbook

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

leiger 1255915242|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Do you mind if I make some of these passages as a verse for the verse module?
Go for it :)

And yes, that's basically what we came up with too. We all want to be first, and we all want to be praised for the work that we do, but having power doesn't necessarily mean that you are first in God's eyes.

James and John come across as being a bit arrogant, and that's why the other disciples are angry with them — but think to how many times we've asked God for something, and think about how arrogant we are ourselves.

We're sinners, and therefore by nature do not deserve God's love. We don't deserve anything that God gives to us. Yet we're given it anyway, and through Jesus, we can be forgiven, and become deserving.

---

— Shane | Blog | CycloDS Revolution | Compatibility List | Want me to manage your next wiki? | XBL: leiger40

Automatic code replacement — Rate it up!

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

leiger 1256464594|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Jesus said to them, "(…) but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared."

If Jesus is God (i.e. the Trinity)… then why is this not his to grant?

What would you give as an answer to that? :|

---

— Shane | Blog | CycloDS Revolution | Compatibility List | Want me to manage your next wiki? | XBL: leiger40

Automatic code replacement — Rate it up!

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

Timothy Foster 1256475230|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

About to leave for church, but I think I can answer this one real quick.

The use of all the pronouns makes this hard to understand, but it seems to say that only the people who will sit at God's left and right can give the position to someone else. Though, I do know that from I believe Hebrews, Jesus sits at God's right, and Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. So, since Jesus is God, is He referring to the one on His right? And the one on the Father's left?

That's a pretty good question. What were your thoughts?

---

— Blog ~ Life's Handbook

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

leiger 1256479513|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Well, I was pretty much stumped by this one, so any insight you can come up with is great :)

• Perhaps it is for two of those that truly can put others first (in context with the passage), and they take their place when Jesus returns
• Perhaps Jesus is saying that it is the Father's choice, and not the Son's… but then, where do we distinguish between the Father and Son being different, and yet them being the same God?
• Perhaps there's a much more logical explanation, that we haven't yet thought of

---

— Shane | Blog | CycloDS Revolution | Compatibility List | Want me to manage your next wiki? | XBL: leiger40

Automatic code replacement — Rate it up!

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

James Kanjo 1257005287|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I have a very different interpretation of your passage Shane:

To me, it seemed as though Jesus was talking about indulgence. James and John were wanting to secure their places in heaven — so they asked one man, Jesus, to do this for them.

Jesus was saying that no man can secure a place in heaven for you… only you can do that. Jesus also goes on to say that if you want a place in heaven, you need to give yourself up to others. By being a servant to other people, you are acting in the spirit of generosity — you are earning your place in heaven.

---

λ James Kanjo | blog | photos | contact

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

Timothy Foster 1257009328|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Consider this: If we had to earn our place in Heaven, all would fail, for in Romans 3:23 —

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

There is no way that we could earn Heaven because God's standard is perfection, and perfection is unattainable without the grace of One who is perfect. That would be Jesus since He did not sin. In the passage above,

For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Jesus gave His life so we may have it as well.

A fundamental belief is that there is no possible way that we can earn eternal life, we can only be given eternal life when we are undeserving of it by the grace of God. This is especially evident in Ephesians 2:1-10.

---

— Blog ~ Life's Handbook

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

James Kanjo 1257058902|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You've taken what I've said out of context. I was talking about indulgence — you can't comply with one of God's wishes and have a spot guaranteed in heaven. You must try to actively live in the spirit of God your whole life, which will mean you're deserving of a fulfilling afterlife (despite your sins). He will help us, after we have helped others.

---

λ James Kanjo | blog | photos | contact

last edited on 1257058997|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by James Kanjo + show more

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

Timothy Foster 1257083189|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Oh, I see now. I apologize for interpreting this wrong.

Then, I do agree with what you are saying for there will be those who are higher in Heaven and those who are lower based on our lives here. So,

actively live in the spirit of God your whole life

is certainly a good thing to do.

---

— Blog ~ Life's Handbook

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

graphmastur 1257108996|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Except what he is saying, is that we have to be good all of our lives in order to get into heaven. I think James just wants to debate really. Due to the fact that he says that there is no right or wrong, except when we step on other people's rights, but now he is saying that you have to be good and do right to be let into heaven. James, there is absolutely nothing you can do to earn a place in heaven.

The passage is talking about how they wanted to be at the right hand of God. James and John, two of the three main disciples of Jesus wanted a higher place in heaven. God told them that he would not give a higher place. They thought that since they were God's disciples, they should get a better position in heaven, than others. However, Jesus dispelled this idea, and said that if you want to be great, then it is not those who are these great disciples of Jesus, but the low and humble people, who serve others.

I think, James, that you simply want to disagree to something. Not actively rooted into your worldview at all. It saddens me to say that, but I believe it is true. You say there is no right or wrong, and yet you say that we have to do right to get to heaven. You say that doing one of God's wishes is not enough, then how is 1,000 going to do it. It means absolutely nothing to Him, otherwise, He would not have had to die for us.

Timothy, he is not saying that good will get you a better spot in Heaven, or on the new earth. He is saying that it's the only way to get to Heaven.

James, I don't believe that verse has anything to do with indulgence either.

---

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;" ~ 1 Peter 3:16

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

Timothy Foster 1257134094|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Timothy, he is not saying that good will get you a better spot in Heaven, or on the new earth. He is saying that it's the only way to get to Heaven.

That's what I originally thought which is why I posted what I did up there. But he said I interpreted it wrong.

spot guaranteed in heaven

I believe there is some confusion around this phrase. Does this mean being able to be in Heaven? Or is having a status/position in Heaven? In the passage, James and John were referring to specific status in Heaven, the right and left of God. I don't think there was a question of whether they would go to Heaven.

---

— Blog ~ Life's Handbook

Re: Bible Reading 2009-10-18

leiger 1257078852|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I have a very different interpretation of your passage Shane

Actually, that is remarkably similar to how I interpret the passage.

Maybe I didn't express myself properly, or am just missing the point you are making. Can you explain which parts are different in our interpretations?

Though of course, as Tim posted, we cannot earn our place in heaven. We can attempt to do so, and we're encouraged to do exactly that, but we will ultimately fail and that's why God's grace is necessary.

---

— Shane | Blog | CycloDS Revolution | Compatibility List | Want me to manage your next wiki? | XBL: leiger40

Automatic code replacement — Rate it up!